Dhaba's second episode of Season 2 welcomes a legend in Design Leadership. Joe Natoli chats with Joel Gill FRSA, creator of Dhaba

Summary

"Start with the work, not the theatre."

That’s the heartbeat of this candid, fast-moving conversation with a veteran designer who cut his teeth in a brutal design school, built a career in enterprise UX, and still believes tiny details move mountains. We dig into the early lessons that never faded—defend every decision, design for the person on the receiving end—and how that rigor translates to the unsexy, high-stakes world of internal products.

The story widens to what really breaks products: fear, politics, and the absence of leadership that has bled and still cares. We talk about rules you must know before you break, the power of vulnerability, and the habit of asking braver questions. AI gets a pragmatic treatment—less prophecy, more practice. Use it to unstick thinking, prototype options, and remove admin drag; keep judgement and ethics human. Along the way, we tackle regulation lag, the myth of the seat at the table, and why you should lead as a value category of one.

Takeaways

• Start with the work, not the theatre
  Process performance is cheap; real design impact comes from decisions, craft, and accountability. Rigour still matters—especially in internal, high-stakes, unglamorous product environments.

• Early lessons still rule the game

  • Defend every decision.

  • Design for the human on the receiving end.

  • Sweat the details because small things shift entire systems.

• The true blockers aren’t tools—they’re culture
  Fear, politics, and weak leadership sabotage products far faster than any methodology. The work demands leaders who have bled, learned, and still care.

• Break rules after you understand them
  Courage in design comes from competence. Master the foundations, then bend them with intention.

• Vulnerability is a design tool
  Braver questions → Better outcomes. Honesty, humility, and saying what others won’t.

• AI: Less prophecy, more practice

  • Use AI to unstick thinking.

  • Prototype multiple paths quickly.

  • Remove admin drag and free teams to make judgement calls.

  • Keep ethics and final responsibility human.

• Regulation and reality are out of sync
  Designers must navigate lagging policy without waiting for permission—apply judgement, document intent, and reduce risk through clarity.

• Forget the ‘seat at the table’ myth
  Influence comes from consequence: solving real problems, reducing risk, and leading as a category of one—not titles.

• A practical escape from process theatre

  • Put every department in the room on day one.

  • Co-create with engineers, database architects, and operators.

  • Frame decisions in margins, risk, finance, and impact—not methods.

  • Ship choices that make sense to humans and the business.

• Tools don’t accelerate careers—outcomes do
  Translate decisions, explain trade-offs, connect design to value. Anyone can list software; few articulate impact.

• A blueprint for dissolving silos and earning trust
  A straight-talking roadmap for breaking siloed roadmaps, earning confidence, and delivering work that actually changes things.

Chapters

• 0:00 Origins And Design School Fire

• 6:30 Mentors, Standards And Defending Decisions

• 12:30 Tiny Details, Big Impact In Enterprise UX

• 18:30 Family Influences And Creative DNA

• 26:00 Rebellion, Constraints And Finding Direction

• 34:00 Rules To Break: Knowing When And Why

• 42:00 Vulnerability, Risk And The Fear Problem

• 49:30 AI: Panic, Pragmatism And Practice

• 1:00:00 Regulation, Reality And Responsibility

• 1:06:30 Stop Debating, Do The Work

• 1:12:30 Value Category Of One And Career Power

• 1:20:00 Corporate Politics And Design Leadership

• 1:29:00 Business Lens: Margins, Models And Money

• 1:38:00 Service Design, Ecosystems And Relevance

Keywords

Design leadership, enterprise UX, internal products, process theatre, decision rigour, design craft, tiny details, cultural blockers, fear and politics, real-world design, breaking silos, cross-functional collaboration, brave questions, vulnerability in leadership, AI in practice, ethical judgement, regulation lag, value creation, outcomes over tools, risk and margins, category-of-one leadership, product realism, earning trust, high-stakes environments